| Author | Message | ||
     LD Guest |
We are now in our fourth year of deer farming on what was virgin land as far as growing anything.We were wondering what would be the best approach to re-establishing a clover/alfalfa based forage in our oldest pasture.It is now overgrown with natural grasses and creeping fescue that we planted at about 15% at the beginning.The clover and alfalfa grew the best in the second year and has slowly tapered off to being non-existant.We have some machinery at our disposal, but know nothing about chemicals and fertilizer. Any advice would be appreciated. | ||
| Hay Man Guest |
LD, in many cases alfalfa is grown as an annual because of less than ideal soil structures. Too. most clovers, altho' perienials, will need to be re-seeded every 5-7 years. I am going to have to re-seed a pasture myself this fall. It does vary region to region. I hope someone from your area, especially your local agriculture dept. points you correctly. | ||
| Highrise Whitetails Guest |
If you would like Sweet Clover, which is medium red clover, and yellow blossom clover, look in the classifieds, email me your zip code and how many acers you would like to plant and I will quote you, to have it delivered to your house. thanks Lynn | ||
| Anonymous |
get a soil sample and get it tested that will tell you what you need to use for lime,fertilizer and ect. and as for chemicals it depends on what you are planting | ||
| R.G. Guest |
I agree, for anyone planting or reseeding a soil sample is where tou MUST start. Trust me, if you do not do a soil sample, you will be defeating your purpose. Some seed dealers do it at no charge if you buy seed from them, or I have seen up to$15 to do this. It will be the best $15 you have ever spent. | ||
| LD Guest |
O.K.about the soil sample.But I was really wondering about the specific procedure.Should I use round-up first and then till or plow it under.Does anybody use no-till methods.Should I leave it as summer fallow?How long should it be l;eft plowed before I seed it?I have no experience with forage at all.Thanks guys | ||
| Anonymous |
I would suggest putting fertilizer and/or lime then till it under then plant your seed and wait until planting is at least 6 inches tall before putting any deer in it | ||
| Anonymous |
LD don't be a dope. You are askng questions of people who have no idea of your conditions. And I don't know how many of your advisors ever grew a crop for real. Go to your local seed dealers and they can provide you with the best seeds for your area and the best advice for your area. Yes, you need a soil sample. | ||
| JDW Guest |
LD, trying to no-till small seeds into a sod situation is almost impossible. Plowing also causes me concerns. What I think would work best would be to disc the area until you have some loose dirt consistently throughout. Don't think you have to have a residue free seedbed. Then I would let whatever comes up get about an inch tall, a foxtail mix would be great. Then when environmental conditions are right, spray glyphosate. The next day you can go in and seed your desired mixture. The dead weeds from the spraying will act somewhat like a nurse crop and will reduce new weed flushes. No-tilling corn and SB is the best farming decision I ever made back in 1983, so I have alot of experience, but trying to no-till small seeds into sod is a formula for an inconsistent stand. If you are interested in Roundup recommendations, post your questions and I'll respond. | ||
| LD Guest |
Thanks so much JDW.So discing it a couple of times over 1 or 2 weeks before letting it come up?The ground is just now beginning to thaw,we still have some snow in the shady areas and the weatherman says our first hot spell of 10-15 celcius is now just beginning.Does the glyphosate kill everything.The grasses have completely taken over the broadleafs,long skinny stemmy stuff.We planted creeping fescue with the clover and alfalfa 4 yrs ago now.We did a soil sample from a home gardening kit and the ph was 6.5,slightly acidic.I am trying to find a lab to do a better analysis,but we are not in farming country.The broadleafs do come up nicely the first couple years.Thanks again! | ||
| Wooden Acres Guest |
Here's another one of those topic's that any good old dairy farmer can help out with. Now I know you all don't like to hear from us dairy people because you know cattle just can't be like deer and all that other BS right? Well here goes anyway! ALFALFA needs a ph of right around 7 to promote growth of nodule forming bacteria. Get your soil tested it can pay big dividends. Lime should be used to correct ph when necessary, carbonates in lime neutralize acidity. Let your soil tests tell you what you need and don't need. Kill off weeds and grasses using round up and then til the ground. You should fertilize befor planting so your fertilizer can be worked in but not to deep only get it down a few inches. Then after your soil is good and smooth pack it once useing a cultipacker or roller. You want your seeds about 1/2 in to 1 inch deep and no deeper unless your in sand then go a bit deeper to retain moister after planting. You want to plant or seed, then go over it again with a roller or cultipacker to get good firm seed to siol contact for germination. No til can work but not as well or as easy. If you no til compitition from other plants has to be eliminated. You don't want trash that can shape the siol surface,Insects are a bigger problem,and soil ph and fertility is harder to obtain. Weeds can be controled using eptam and Balan after working your soil but use it befor planting. Any other questions I'd be happy to help but, I am an old dairy farmer so that may not be good on here for some. Good Luck | ||
| Dave Member Username: Dave Post Number: 323 Registered: 01-2002  |
Ross, I was going to buy some clover to plant a new pen, Here in WI, what is the best to use? I have sandy soil that I added some better top soil to it. Nice to finally see you at the banquet, sorry I didn't get much time to talk. I was getting caught up in the auction. Dave | ||
| JDW Guest |
LD, I think your getting some good advice about soil testing and getting advice from people in your area. One thing I would differ on would be spraying before tilling. Roundup is a contact, translocated herbicide, with no residual activity, and at this time of year I don't see the advantage of spraying before tilling. Wet, cold soils don't till well, so you want to time your tilling when the soil will crumble to some degree. If you dig up some soil at the depth you will be tilling at, and can roll mudballs in your hand, the soil is still to wet. Also, roundup is a non selective herbicide and should have activity on any weeds your dealing with (grass or broadleaves) if their actively growing and you spray in favorable conditions. For best spraying results, water needs to be conditioned (adding ammonia sulfate to the water to tie up the Ca and Mg in the water) before adding glyphosate. Also the dew needs to be off, so spraying late morning, and early afternoon is best on warm, sunny days. Try not to use more than 15 gallons of water per acre, and overlap the spray pattern at least 20%, preferably more. Hope this helps. | ||
| Wooden Acres Guest |
JWD your right don't plow to early and round up only kills green living growing plants. Also if there's alot of broard leaves you might want to add a bit of 2-4-D to your sprayer along with the round up. Spraying on dry plants is the best, think of it as spray painting. You wouldn't exspect to paint something that was wet would you? A spreader sticker is also a good thing to add to your spray, it gives you much better coverage of the plant material your trying to kill. You want the spray on the plants not all dripping on the bare ground. JWD is right round up only kills whats there growing and green at the time it's used won't do a thing for plants yet to sprout, so let your area your spraying grow and green out some befor useing it. Also use a brand of clover or alfalfa that can withstand grazing, and I'd use a multi leave. I've had real good luck with berseem and ladino clovers for deer food plots as well as grazing alfalfa's. Most alfalfa's need to be cut every 28 to 30 days to maintain high levels of proteins thus the multigrazer types work better for pasturing animals. Plant alfalfa's at 15 to 20 pounds of seed per acre and clovers at 10 to 12 pounds of seeds per acre. There's about 221,000 seeds per pound with alfalfa's and 293,000 seeds per pound with clovers. | ||
| LD Guest |
Thanks ever so much guys.This gives us lots to chew on.Never thought those old farmers were so technical and that there would be so much to grazing animals on pastures.thanks again! | ||
| JDW Guest |
Ross, I think we just got called "old", not experienced or middle aged, but old. I was careful not to post any pictures of myself. Wish you good luck on your reseeding efforts, LD. | ||
| LD Guest |
Sorry guys,OLD=EXPERIENCE | ||
| Wooden Acres Guest |
JDW , I guess we'd be lucky sometimes to just be called old!!! Better than crazy or something goofy !!! Hope everyones spring goes well and all our doe's fawn out ok and the bucks grow antlers larger than ever exspected !! Good luck to all in everything you do!!! Also as an X army guy please back our troops even if you think we shouldn't be there, back them and support those that protect you, Thank You | ||
| Anonymous |
What is the ideal ph for a mostly clover pasture,and how much lime is needed to raise ph 1 pt.? | ||
| Guthrie Guest |
FYI- This is something that I never knew and I am sure others do not also as I have talked with other before. Planting alfalfa, I have reseeded and had no luck with good growth. Found out why, I did not do all things suggested. Round up to kill the plant before first frost. Till under real well. All this needs to be done as Alfalfa put off a toxin that kills other plants around it, clovers grass, ect. I have wasted alot of $ trying to reseed by trying to "cheat" alittle and not doing it right. I found that if not doing it right or not having right equipment that it is a waste of time and money. If you are not sure of something go talk to a local farmer in your area, most a very helpful and love to talk. | ||
| Wooden Acres Guest |
The ideal PH for clover is 7 but it depends on what sort of lime you use to raise PH in soils 1 point. There's ground limestone, burnt lime,slake, ground oyster shells and slag. Theres also different sizes of lime particals which makes lime work faster or slower depending on the size used. Lime should be put on 6 months to a year ahead of replanting legumes and most places need around 3 or 4 tons per acre every 5 to 10 years. Alfalfas and clovers need plenty of Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium. Old roots and plants can be a bit toxic to new seedlings and rotation of crops works best. Legumes are nitrogen fixers(they pull some nitrogen into the ground) and grass's and corn and small grains(oats,rye) use it. Soybeans also put nitrogen into the ground. Guthrie is right if not done right or at least close your waisting your time and money. You might want to try berseem clover it's tough and deer love it. Good Luck | ||
| NYBill Guest |
Now I know Ross knows more then I ever will on this, but isnt it alfalfa that you DONT wanna put any nitrogen to? The farm co-ops here say 0-10-20 or similar. They say it doesnt need nitrogen and itll just feed the weeds. OK, which is it? | ||
| Wooden Acres Guest |
Bill you only want nitrogen on alfalfa when your planting. Once it's growing it will fix it's own nitrogen meaning it will pull it out of the air. Legumes are nitrogen fixers and grass's are users. You are right if you put nitrogen on existing hay or legume fields it will in fact make grass's grow and to a point they will over take or choke out alfalfa or clovers. Both clovers and alfalfa's need nitrogen to help bacteria in the ground form nodules on their roots when they are first growing. Once the nodules are well grown on the root these legumes can and will draw enough nitrogen from the air to supply all they need. So Bill use nitrogen to help new seedings and none on an established crop, growing alfalfa's main fertilizer should be potash. Of course this is just what I do!! | ||
| Fenceguy Member Username: Fenceguy Post Number: 1 Registered: 02-2003  |
Got to agree with NY Bill. He's right. If you are planting legumes you don't need to use nitrogen at all. Just got my soil tests back from A&M. We're planting lablab. No nitrogen needed. Same with alfalfa. | ||
| Wooden Acres Guest |
Fenceguy look at your soil tests you must already have enough nitrogen to get lablab or alfalfa started. If you already have enough of course you don't need any more, but alfalfa seeds need some nitrogen to get going from seed to a growing nitrogen fixing plant. I really don't know why I waist my time on here? You don't need lime either if your soils already testing at a ph of 7 or higher! Hell you don't even need seeds if theres already a bunch lieing in the ground. I'm just trying to tell you guys what these crops need to start growing. You don't need to buy things already in your soil thats why you need soil tests. Try growing alfalfa with a soil with no nitrogen in it at all and see what happens. Fenceguy you must just have enough already exisiting in your soil that you don't need to apply more dosen't mean lablab or alfalfa seeds don't need any just means it's already there. It takes nitrogen to form nodules on alfalfa roots and thats scientific fact. Seems regardless of what we post someone will always find a way to disagree. Test your soils and put on what the crop that your planting needs and to hell with what it dosen't need or whats already there in the soil. Anyone should know if it's already there in an adequit amount you don't need to buy more of it. If you think alfalfa seeds need no nitrogen what so ever, none at all, your stand will suffer. You need rhizobia bacteria to grow alfalfa and it feeds on nitrogen plain and simple. | ||
| Fenceguy Member Username: Fenceguy Post Number: 2 Registered: 02-2003 |
Fair enough. Honestly didn't occur to me that there would be soil with no nitrogen. Since you mention lime, are you also knowledgeable about lime and types of? | ||
| Wooden Acres Guest |
Fenceguy, there are several types of lime but most all lime in the U.S.is ground lime stone. There's also burnt lime, slake(hydrate lime) marl,ground oyster shells and slag. In some areas you can get liquid lime but you don't want to pay for it it's expensive. What you want to look for is how coarse or fine it's ground what mesh it is. The larger the particles the longer it takes to work but the longer it lasts too. It also takes more lime per acre in heavy loam soils than it would in sand. Your soil tests will tell you how much and what to use. | ||
| Fenceguy Member Username: Fenceguy Post Number: 3 Registered: 02-2003 |
Thanks. My soil test said 1.5 tons per acre. I have lime available from the local quarry. This is available as "screenings". I'm not really in a farming community. I have not been able to find a way to spread it. Don;'t have any fertilizer spreaders available. Are there any alternate methods? | ||
| JDW Guest |
The only possible alternative I can think of, would be a spreader that could be pulled with an ATV, but I would guess there are larger spreaders somewhere in your area. Don't forget to make sure the alfalfa seed or other legume seed is properly innoculated with rhizobia bacteria. Usually the seed is sold this way, but not always. This is the bacteria that will fix the N from the atmosphere. The proper innoculant for your seed can be done where you buy your seed, or you can stir in the innoculant yourself. In general, 2 tons of lime would raise pH from 5.5 to 6.5, but there are too many variables in lime sources and different soil types and properties to make accurate broad statements, so take this one with a grain of salt. | ||
| NYBill Guest |
Thanks Ross, I got what you were saying. Tell me what you recommend for a fertilizer ratio for an existing white clover stand. Feel free to generalize, as I dont have a soil test handy. | ||
| Wooden Acres Guest |
Bill if I had some white clover and wasn't to worried about cutting a real large crop for a big profit I'd just put on some potash. I'd probably go with 250 pounds of 0-0-60 or a 0-14-4 which has some phosphorus too. Not to sure about clovers but a ton of alfalfa needs roughly 15 pounds of phosphorus and 65 pounds of potassium. Bill to get good food value keep your clover cut off every 28 to 30 days in normal weather conditions. You can get high protien content with good young regrowth along with high digestable energy. Full bloom or flowered legumes (ripe plants) are only roughly 12 to 14 percent protien with as low as 52 percent digestable energy. Prebud to midbud can be over 21to 24 percent protien and over 65 percent digestible energy. If you want a large crop of hay and want the best you can get you'd need to watch the phos,potash,sulfur,boron,and molybdenum for bacteria nutrition. We do all know by now nitrogen is only a concern when planting and these legumes get it out of the air once they become established. Good hay should be 20-30-40. Meaning 20+ percent protien,30 percent acid detergent fiber, and 40 percent neutral detergent fiber with over 65 percent digestable energy, thats pretty good hay. I've had hay as high as 27 percent protien but it's hard to get it made right. | ||
| Anonymous |
We are having problems with worms in our fawns, we are worming the adult deer, but it is not helping the fawns. Is there anything that can be used to spray on the pastures to help with the worms? |
