| Author | Message | ||
     VOICES OF WISCONSIN Guest |
From Casey at Voices of Wisconsin: The current test our state is using to identify if a tissue shows to be positive or negative has little merit. Here is the justification for that statement: These are the test results for Stan Hall's deer to date, Thursday, January 8th, 2004, 8:30 p.m. Of the many sample's Stan submitted, four of the deer tested positive. The trouble with these four samples is that when the SAME samples were sent to different qualified testing facilities the results came back DIFFERENT. NSVL ID# AMES, IA 2379 Pos. 2385 Pos. 2389 Pos. 2390 Neg. CVDL ID# FORT COLINS, CO 2379 Pos. 2385 Neg. 2389 Pos. 2390 Pos. TVMDL ID# TEXAS A&M TX 2379 Pos. 2385 Pos. 2389 Pos. 2390 Pos. The deer with ID# 2379 is the deer that Stan had on his farm for only five days. The trace back quarantined the farm of origination for this deer. 1. The discrepancy between the testing facilities shows the importance of keeping several samples. 2. When a deer is found to be negative at one facility and positive at the other two, does that mean the animal was only two thirds sick? Or should we say one third healthy? Our livelihoods are at stake here with these inconsistent results! 3. IF these results were to be taken serious, they still only show positives and negatives. This test DOES NOT SHOW IF THE ANIMAL IS, OR WILL BECOME CLINICAL FOR THE CWD CONDITION! That is why the deer which are supposedly positive all look so healthy. They are not clinical. Just like the AIDS virus. An HIV positive does not mean a person will be clinical and die from AIDS. 3. In Colorado 97% of the deer which tested positive for CWD, only less than 3% were clinical. The 207 deer that tested positive in the Wisconsin eradication attempt of 2002 by the WDNR were of the same picture of health statis. It was the bullet that killed them---not clinical CWD! 4. When a tissue is said to be positive it is because of the presence of a proteinase resistant prion. This is all the test shows! There is no test which shows if an animal is clinical. In addition, if there are still normal prions present (they have not been removed) the chemical used on the tissue will make the normal prions show up as positive. This is where MUCH of the dicrepency takes place by the labs. TAKE NOTE: IT IS IMPERATIVE WE DEMAND OUR GOVERNMENT TO MAKE A TEST FACILITY WHERE THE NEAR DEVELOPED LIVE ANIMAL BLOOD TEST CAN BE USED TO HOUSE DEER THAT TEST POSITIVE, AND LET THEM LIVE LONG HEALTHY LIVES SO THAT WE CAN SEE JUST WHAT ANIMALS BECOME CLINICAL AND WHY. WE COULD COMPARE THESE TEST ANMIMALS TO CONTROL ANIMALS AND LEARN SOMETHING! WE CAN START MAKING THE CORRELATIONS TO TOXINS, GENETICS (DNA), IMMUNE SYSTEMS, LOCATIONS, AGE, ETC. TO SAY THIS TEST IS "BEST SCIENCE" IS HOGWASH. TO KILL PEFECTLY HEALTHY ANIMALS TO PREVENT THEM FROM GETTING SICK IS HOGWASH. THIS TEST DOES NOT SHOW THE CAUSE OF CWD, OR IF CWD CAN BE SPREAD. THIS TEST ONLY SHOWS THAT IT CAN DETECT A POSITIVE-- (SOME OF THE TIME). PRINT THIS OUT AND GIVE THESE FACTS TO YOUR LEGISLATORS TOMORROW!!!!!!! Thank you, Casey | ||
| Anonymous |
If the gov't was smart it would not kill all of Stan's deer. They would buy them for research. What better way to learn about CWD. As for the inconsistencies that is very disturbing. I often wonder if Stan has any positives. There are too many disturbing things that have happened to make you wonder if you can truly trust our government. | ||
| Donna Guest |
You wonder about the few from Stan Hall's herd, I wonder about the thousands that were killed down south. Are any of the results accurate? | ||
| Donna Guest |
Since Stan's case is again discussed. When mad cow showed up, a second test was done and also a DNA test. Why was it ok for the cattle industry be allowed this, but not the deer industry? Thats all Stan ever asked for. | ||
| DNR/USDA POWERPLAY Guest |
I understand the POSSIBLE need for paper trails, but if the test results on average are one out of two or two out of three accurate why are we game farmers in Wisconsin being threatened with something so drastic as a quarantine or a depopulation based on a sketchy test result? What is Whitetails of Wisconsin doing about this excessive power play being forced upon us? Is the lab at Ames, Iowa too good to be questioned? | ||
| Laurie Praz Guest |
WOW is supporting Stan's lawsuit and the right to a second test. The precedence was set when they sent the BSE positive sample on for a second test. This should be good news for Stan's case. What's good for one industry is good for another. | ||
| DNR/USDA POWERPLAY Guest |
You made one of my points Ms. Praz. What is good for one industry is good for another. However, do all the cattle in Washington have to be ear tagged? Do all the cattle coming into and going out of Washington have to be TB tested and are their borders closed? If an animal dies, do they have to have a vet come, take out a sample, pay the vet, and then dispose of the body by incineration or burial even if the animal died of say, a broken leg? THE POINT YOU REALLY DID MISS IS "IF THE FIRST TEST WAS NOT CONSISTENT WITH THE TEST IN ENGLAND (LIKE THE TESTS ON CWD IN WISCONSIN)---WOULD PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO QUESTION THE VALIDITY OF THE TEST BEFORE REACTING SO DRASTICALLY TO INCONCLUSIVENESS? So again I ask, what is WOW doing about the validity of the test that is currently being used which is very inconsistent, and the over-excessive measures taken against the game farms based on such inconclusiveness? | ||
| ANON Guest |
Better Question!!!!!!!! What is WOW and their lobbyist doing to protect deer farmers in WI? If WOW is speaking for our entire industry in our state, they should have policy statement on each issue facing us. If that is not present we should develope one (example of issues: Stan Hall case, quarantines, TB testing,Validity of tests TB/CWD,WDNR and Dept of AG slander and discrinminatory practices,source of CWD,80 acre rule etc.). If a statement is to be developed it should be done with the involvement of all members. If this does not make sense, it should be be publicly declared that WOW does not represent our industry in our state. I'm not saying this to bash WOW but WOW has to understand that the WDNR and the Dept of AG claims both that WOW is in agreement with them and that WOW does so as the representative of our industry. I personally have been told this by WDNR officials, state vets and legislators when I called many of them on the captive wildlife bill. Since then whenever I called Madison to question something and identified myself as a deer farmer, that was the party line across the board! Something's wrong with this---I hope. | ||
| DNR/USDA POWERPLAY Guest |
ANON: Whenever I start addressing a concern of mine to the DNR, Dept. of Ag., and the legislators who I trust, and introduce myself as a deer farmer from this state, they say, "well your organization (WOW)agreed to this position, bla, bla, bla. At times I have been embarrassed and had to do some quick double talk to look like I knew what the hell they were talking about. Other times what WOW agreed upon was not what I would agree upon. So are you saying that if WOW would make a statement of position on the issues it would clearly outline point by point where they stood on these critical issues? If that is what you mean, I am in favor of that because then we would know if we would want to support it or not. I don't know about anyone else, but I get the willies when I hear the phrase {inter-agency meeting.} | ||
| ANON Guest |
DNR/USDA That's is right on my point and right on my experience! Too much seems to be going on behind the scenes and being passed off as all of our positions. I suggested this to help WOW clarify their position on the critical issues so we could all come together behind them. No more confusion, no more "divide and control", and a building of numbers that the WDNR and the Dept of Ag could not deny!!!!! I know there are other organizations out there that are spending their time and money fighting for the truth on their own. When we finally pool our resources, our facts and our dollars, we will get a level playing field where truth rules. By the way, the lobbyist or lack there of, is critical. I have had personal experience with a number of lobbyists, VOW has an excellent one, WOW has one that, for whatever reason, is doing little for the group and in my opinion, is not operating as a lobbyist should. | ||
| NE Guest |
Why don't you folks call the board members and volunteer to form a committee to write all these statements? Make sure you involve all members then as you state as well. | ||
| Stevel Member Username: Stevel Post Number: 153 Registered: 07-2000 |
Just my opinion... the WOW Board was elected by the members of the association. This fact should dictate that they have indeed been chosen to speak for their members. Having experience as a Board member of the Ohio association, I can tell you that most of the time when an issue arises, a quick response is absolutely necessary. There is no time to have a meeting and have the members vote on what our response should be. I feel that we were elected to our positions because our members felt that we knew their feelings on these issues and would respond accordingly. As far as issues like your Captive Wildlife Bill, I would be surprised if that issue was decided without input from any members who wished to comment. If you tie the hands of your leadership, you make them look impotent in front of the DNR, the Ag Board, politicians and the general public. I can assure you that if they do not think you speak for your industry, the powers in charge will not even give you the time of day. Although I live in Ohio, I have tried to stay very aware of what is going on in other states, especially in Wisconsin. I have several contacts in Wisconsin and am kept somewhat informed because I take the time to call them and ask questions. Again, it is just my opinion, but instead of bashing them and questioning their every move, you should be thanking God that you have as many people trying to do good for this industry as you have in Wisc. These people have gone to great personal expense, lost countless hours of sleep and spent untold hours of their time trying their best to get your industry through these trying times. You may take this as a slam, but I do not intend it that way when I say to you, if you really think you can do a better job, try to get on the Board. If you have ideas or constructive criticisms, voice them directly to a Board member and stop bashing them while under the cloak of anonymity on a public forum. Don't you realize that every time you do, you put a smile on the face of people like Tom Solin, because people like him thrive on this type of dissention within our industry. | ||
| Anonimity Guest |
You said it Steve, the board members represent the MEMBERS, what about the other hundreds and hundreds of deer farmers in Wisconsin who are not members? They are real people too in real need! A while ago Russell listed over ten reasons why he feels the "annonymous" priviledge is of value on this site, and from reading the above posts it doesn't look like any of Russell's reasons have been violated. It is no secret to the Tom Solin's of the world that when some individuals hear something like the unworthiness of the current tests, that their will be many who want to know what the deer organization (WOW) is doing about it. It appears there are some pent up feelings being let out. | ||
| Anonymous |
Anon, As far as the 80 acre minimum, I don't believe wow had any say in the matter. I believe they were told it was a done deal. Maybe someone else know more. | ||
| Roger_p Member Username: Roger_p Post Number: 405 Registered: 04-2002 |
If someone has something to say about wow why dont they say it then. This forum although a great place to discuss and exchange info and ideas, isnt a wow website. Every board members name has been made available to the members. Every board member is willing to listen to what a member has to say. Contact any of them and arrange to attend a board meeting to voice up front and out loud each and every concern you have. Bring ideas on how to approach each issue. Be ready to help with each idea. This forum isnt and never will be the sounding board of whitetails of wisconsin. | ||
| anonymus Guest |
well said roger p but like said above too. What about us people who ar e not members of wow. The NRA knows everyone is not a member but they know we all want to bear arms. They go to bat for all of us not just members. You don't dare drop us off who like to farm animals because were not a member.. I got deer and cattle. And we fight for you in changing the paperwork trying ridding the wolves thorugh the cattlemens assoc. | ||
| Joel Espe Guest |
I am not a member of WOW but worked with their delgation in Washington D.C. a couple of months ago. They were easy to work with and talk to. They were responsive to the delegation from the Wisconsin Commercial Deer and Elk Farmers Association and worked in a very cooperative spirit with them. I spoke with Dr. Ray Favero from Illinois last night; Ray was at the WOW meeting and he told me he was very impressed with the meeting. Support your industry, support your organizations and support your board members. There is enough stress without getting hit from inside as well. Find a way to get involved in a positive way and DON'T EVER GIVE UP! | ||
| VOICES OF WISCONSIN Guest |
From Casey at Voices of Wisconsin: As a follow-up to Joel's account as a witness to the Whitetails of Wisconsin organization's worthiness we will also varify the fact that the board members are true to the spirit and good will of the industry. At Voices of Wisconsin we know all too well that being a board member can be thankless, and hardly ever seemingly appreciated. My original intent of posting the Stan Hall test results is to show the inconsistency by the different labs testing on the same samples. Because our deer and elk are so passionate to all of us, many opinions can burst into the open from even a simple list of test results. To help WOW and the game farm industry our leading worker in Voices of Wisconsin (VOW), Donna, e-mailed and faxed the first post of this thread to: the NRB, the Ag. board, the CULFARR group, the environmental committees, the JCRAR committee, God knows how many legislators, many influential individuals, newspaper companies, and broadcast stations. As another task we are putting together an "accountability" letter to ask relevant questions to both the state vet Dr. Ehlenfeldt, and the head of wildlife biology in the WDNR, Tom Hauge respectively concerning the game farm industry. Be assured their answers will be well thought out. There are also some of us who want to testify in front of the Ag. board on several issues. The point here is that there is something all of us can do on whatever levels to help with the common cause of seeking the truth, and using deerfarmer.com is a way to communicate and exercise our freedoms. Even though some of the messages here are hard to digest,there are not any other forums or websites where people can visit and let their feelings and truths be known without being crucified. We adhere to Joel's advice and as you seek the truth remember an alliance is more powerful than a division. Thank you, Casey | ||
| Unity Guest |
I am in another State that is wroking trough the game farm conflict if you will. I am a board member and spend countless hours and dollars on our association. This may make you mad but here is how I see it. Myself and the majority of farmers in the State are involved and united in our efforts. Every single farmer has been notified and had the opportunity to join. We do not support or acknowledge anyone who is not a member. As an organization we have set standards that we abide by and we can not risk people with no interest in the longevity of our business to put us at risk by doing something stupid that will look badly on us. We strongly oppose freeloaders while the rest of us work diligently. I hope you are not offended but that just the way it is. |
